Intro

SPEAKER_01 0:02

This week we're discussing movies dealing with pop music icons.

SPEAKER_03 0:07

That's right. Mother Mary, which deals with the fake pop star, and Michael, which obviously deals with the real life king of pop.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

And for TV, we'll be discussing the season two penultimate episodes of both Monarch, Legacy of Monsters, and Daredevil Born Again.

SPEAKER_03 0:25

Anyway, let's get it um popping.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

This is We should watch Episode 5.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Yay!

SPEAKER_03 0:53

Okay, guys. Mother Mary is a surreal pop drama from filmmaker David Lowry, best known for The Green Knight. It blends the spectacle of modern stardom with something darker and more mythic. It's inspired by the idea of a future Taylor Swift level icon shaped by the gothic tone of Dracula. And the film explores fame as both performance and possession, I suppose. It stars Anne Hathaway as a global pop superstar and Michaela Cole as the designer and creative partner who helped build her image, setting up an intense, intimate story about identity, control, and I suppose artistic ownership. What would you think, Sish?

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Uh I mostly saw this movie based on my experience with the first trailer. Which at least really intrigued me if I didn't outright enjoy it. Putting my notes together, I realized I might have also subconsciously felt this movie would be a good time based on how many highly entertaining movies we've seen lately where there's some lady pop stars the lead. True.

SPEAKER_03 2:05

Oh my god, smiley dos. Love it.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Uh and honestly, I probably should have paid more attention to potential reasons I wouldn't enjoy it. I mean, Ashley did mention a few times prior to seeing it that it was made by David Lowry, the same person who did the Green Knight, which was a movie that I did understand the critical appeal of, but I just couldn't seem to commit my attention to and never actually finished watching because to me it was just slow, sad, and too overly surreal to really enjoy.

SPEAKER_03 2:38

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:40

With that said, I haven't seen a lot of Anne Hathaway-led movies, uh, but I admit to enjoying movies that I've seen that happen to have her in them. I'm a dude, so probably less stuff like Rachel Getting Married and more The Dark Knight Rises, the 2010 Alice in Wonderland movie starring Johnny Depp. Oh. And uh Christopher Nolan's Interstellar. I liked her in those roles.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Also, Michaela Cole, I recognize from previous roles in Black Mirror and Black Panther Wakanda Forever. Uh FK Twiggs is in this also. And Hunter Schaefer. But I am an old man, so I'm more just making note of them rather than actually uh having seen them in much of anything.

SPEAKER_03 3:29

Yeah, I think we just saw FK Twiggs in the Crow remake.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Crow reboot. And I think Hunter is in Euphoria, and that's what I know her.

SPEAKER_03 3:40

Yeah, I don't think we've seen her in any movies.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Yeah, so but I don't watch that, so anyway. I think the cast kind of blinded me to the crew and filmmaker aspect of it, I guess. Probably in my notes, but I actually realized that we probably didn't see the final trailer for this film. Because it contained one of the scenes that I think we both had an uncomfortable time watching. Actually, I'm pretty sure we didn't see it because I would have been way more critical about it ahead of time. As far as my thoughts after seeing the movie, I want to highlight two things. One, I guess it's been a good run trusting the trailers and my gut reaction to them, but I guess that won't work anymore because that shit did not work out for this movie. Uh and two, make sure you don't take mushrooms before seeing this shit. Oh god. Or maybe do. I don't know. I guess it depends on how much you like the movie outside of the crazy visuals.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Anyway, I really want to dig into what I didn't like about the movies, so I think I'll first just talk about what I did like about it. The cast was great, even if I didn't like all the characters they played. And Hathaway was amazing, as usual. Well, I think I appreciate her the most when her own seemingly fun personality comes through in her characters. This movie definitely wasn't one of those times.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

No.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

However, she did really commit to the role as the Mother Mary character, and I think she did do a good job balancing the character's icon personality traits with her true feelings and emotions. Michaela Cole, I think, also did a great job, but I just couldn't stand her character for most of the movie, even though I felt like it was more a problem with the way her character was written and the dialogue she was given and how she delivered it, rather than anything she failed to deliver on. Thinking about the acting in this movie as a whole, I really did feel like much of the characters and dialogue were written in a way where it at least seemed like Lowry didn't leave much room for interpretation. So agree. I don't know if that was the actual case.

SPEAKER_03 5:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Though I did frequently question the reality of what we were seeing on screen in regard to whether it was symbolism or what the characters are actually seeing with their own eyes. I will admit that a lot of it looked aesthetically beautiful. If you've seen The Green Knight, I think that same level of polish as far as visual effects and even them helping uh to do some of the heavy lifting as far as conveying emotion is also in this film. This was probably one of the best aspects of the film, and I found it to be as grandiose as some other recent films we've seen, like Luke Bassans, Dracula Lovetale, and Wuthering Heights. Now that I've gotten all the good stuff out of the way, I just gotta say this movie was a tough watch, and that's very nice about it. It's really hard to get into the specifics of why I really found this movie to be a hard watch because this is one of those movies where the plot was fairly well concealed by the trailers that you get the most exposure. So I guess the best way for me to describe this movie is if you were like us growing up, involved in either performance or visual art or music, to just think of high school or college and the most annoying over-the-top personalities when it comes to that stuff. Just imagine them all coming together to make the most unbearably artsy slow bird movie that they could make about something I wouldn't say is trivial, but is something that normal people deal with. Because these people are performers, designers, artists, what have you. Somehow they're always being crushed under the weight of these very typical situations. And that's really how I felt watching this movie. I think for me, as someone who has spent part of their life being a full-time performer, I just feel like people doing what they love and getting paid for it, then being all woe is me, especially someone being at the level of Anne Hathaway's character in this movie. I personally can't empathize or sympathize with that. Like they literally get to do what they love and are the forefront of the industries they work in, but instead of working on themselves, they put the onus on other people to adjust how they behave. Like, nah, man. So yeah, right there. In regard to that aspect of the movie, I was already checked the fuck out. Uh circling back to the vibe of this movie, I'm sure it's no surprise that it didn't at all end up being what I expected based on the trailers, or at least the trailer we saw, which was the first trailer specifically. I was expecting a visually striking thriller suspense film, but what I actually ended up getting was more of an art house film with some of those elements. So for ratings, I gave it a one for enjoyment and a three and a half for quality. Yeah. I'm sure it's no surprise, but I didn't enjoy this movie much at all. I did give it a one because I will say I enjoyed much of the visual aspect of it, even if I didn't care for the story that they were hoping to tell with them. But I even tried and it was physically difficult to keep engaged because it was such a slow burn and wasn't interesting to me. So I admittedly started staring into oblivion, wondering what the hell it was that I was watching, or nodded off, and would wake up and try to reposition myself in a way to stay awake.

SPEAKER_03 9:08

Well, my favorite part was when I looked over and and you were rub, you took your glasses off and were rubbing your eyes, and I thought, oh my god, is he crying? Did he see something in this movie that I didn't?

SPEAKER_01 9:20

But no, it was just that you had to stay awake, man. Uh I can't deny the quality of this movie though. Even though it wasn't really my thing, the acting was great, visual elements were really well done. So I had to give it a three and a half because those aspects were honestly done as well as some of the other movies we've seen with similar visual style. As for recommendations, I'll just bring up the two movies that I assumed this movie would be kind of like, which didn't end up being the case. Smile 2 and Trap.

unknown 9:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Trap, I know Ashley and I loved, and I think Smile 2 uh was one of the early films that we caught last year when we started watching more horror. So if you want to see something less art house and more popcorn movie, I think those two are some solid picks.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

Yeah, those are great recommendations.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Yeah. So what do you think?

SPEAKER_03 10:10

Well, I have a lot of thoughts. I mean, it was an interesting watch. I think the first thing is I spent most of Mother Mary asking myself, okay, what is real? What is actually happening? And why should I care? Because at the core, this is a movie basically about two very dramatic artsy people fighting over a dress and somehow treating it like it's the fall of Rome.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

And it's a personal thing, it's like a personal situation. It has nothing to do with the industries that they're in, really. It's a backdrop to the movie.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

Yeah, and look, it's not a small movie visually. It looks huge, it sounds huge, it moves like it's saying massive things about fame and identity and obsession and art and religion and performance. It's like they want every frame to be iconic. But underneath all of that, exactly underneath just about a pop star who needs a new dress for a song she's singing that goes to her old friend and former designer. They've got unresolved baggage, sure, but that's it. That's the movie. And honestly, that should be enough. There's a compelling idea there, like the intimacy between artists and how some people help build your image, and then how some people could have a sense of emotional ownership, how collaboration turns into control. All of that could be interesting, but the movie never gets specific enough about what this thing is for it to land. You know, instead of grounding the relationship in something real, it keeps inflating everything into a metaphor. Oh my God, there's ghost imagery, the vague witchcraft, spiritual symbolism, rituals, visions, all these constant signals that this must mean something bigger, but it never clarifies what that something is. So you end up with a movie where nothing is allowed to just be real. There's no solid emotional footing, and you can't track what the characters actually want from each other in a concrete way. And with without that, all the symbolism just like floats. Um, at one point, the movie basically calls itself out. One character says to the other, you always speak in metaphors. And yeah, that's the whole movie. I mean, you could call this mother metaphor. That's what it's about. And the dialogue leans into it. There's one scene where one character says, I want to be sharp, and the other says, You want me to make you a knife? And then the other says, I want to have a point. Like, what are you talking about? And that's the issue. The movie is so focused on sounding like it has a point that it never actually lands one. And that leads into the dialogue. It is so arch that it feels like performance art. Like at first, I thought, wait a minute, maybe I just need a minute to adjust, you know, like with Shakespeare. If you haven't seen it in a while, it takes you a couple minutes to settle into the rhythm of the language. But no, I had no idea what they were talking about for the first 10 minutes of the movie. It was just nonsense. And yeah, I realized that's just how everyone talks. Nobody says what they mean. Everything arrives wrapped in symbolism and emotional prophecy. Every sentence feels like they want it to be quoted as if the writer's looking at you like, see how clever I am. And the premises are strong overall, I think. Mik Michaela Cole, in particular, is awesome here. She fully embodies the role. She really sells the dialogue, even if I don't know what she's talking about. Um, and Ann Hathaway, she sounds great, she looks amazing, and she I know for a fact put a massive amount of work into this, but I think the problem is that her character feels a little too earnest and honestly a little too mopey to fully sell this untouchable global pop icon side of the character.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

That's kind of true.

SPEAKER_03 14:29

You know, mega pop stars like there needs to be some danger. There needs to be a lot of ego, some absurd confidence. And Anne Hathaway's Mother Mary, she feels like she would cry if he looked at her wrong. And that's not knocking her performance at all. I think it's by design. I think the director was looking for a mournful energy from her, which makes a little more sense as the movie goes on, sort of. But I wish that she also had a chance to showcase her character at her height, or at least to see how the public sees her outside of a couple performance scenes. Hunter Schaefer and FK Twiggs, they have some nice moments in their smaller roles, but both of them have really egregious over-the-top dialogue in the film. Each of them has a scene that I thought, oh my God, if I were hired to act on this, I wouldn't know what to do. Because there's no, I'm gonna say grounding a lot in this room. There's no grounding to it. Like, what are they talking about? Why are they talking about this? And to be honest, I just felt bad for them. It feels like a difficult task. Because yeah, actors are limited by the stories they're telling. And I think the biggest frustration, or one of them I had, was trying to unpack the relationship between Sam Michaela Cole's character and Mother Mary Ann Hathaway's character. Because based on the text alone, dude, they were just friends and collaborators who stopped communicating after Mother Mary decided to work with a new designer. Like it's a shame for their friendship. But that's something that I think every adult has been through. Friends or collaborators, they can grow apart. They don't stay together their whole lives. But the movie seems to hint like that there was something more, but they never explain it. And it seems all the more absurd considering that the director, yeah, said that Mother Mary is Taylor Swift in 10 to 15 years. Are you seriously trying to tell me that you think Taylor Swift has this kind of relationship with her stylist? Like they're talking about love and closeness, and you know everything about me. I kept wondering, okay, well, did they date? Is this what's happening? Is it that kind of a love story? Is it a friendship? Is it collaboration? And they never explain it fully. And the the emotional ambiguity, oh my God, it leads to a scene that fully broke me. I was like, get me out of here.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Yeah, it's in the second trailer, the final trailer.

SPEAKER_03 17:05

Yes. Okay, so Sam needs to see Mother Mary dance so she can design the dress for her performance, right? Well, yeah, of course. You wouldn't know how it's gonna look with the movement. But because she's bitter about their split, she refuses to listen to Mother Mary's song. So god damn poor Anne Hathaway. She has to perform the choreography with no music. And guys, the scene goes on for like two to three minutes of brutal, all-out like dance thrashing. I had to look away from the screen to stop myself from bursting into laughter. And it's not on the actors, they're doing a damn good job playing it seriously, but it was so uncomfortable to watch. And I'm just gonna go ahead and read my notes I took at the time because I couldn't look at the screen, so I was just writing my portrayal thought. So here's what we have. Watching someone dance without music is so embarrassing. I hate this, and I never in my life want to see someone dance like this without music. Oh my god, the sounds, the sounds of her grunting and stomping. I'm dying. I can't look. This is terrible. I'm so embarrassed for these actors. They had to do this with straight faces. Oh my god, I'm dying. It puts me right back in it to even think about that scene. At least at the end of the scene, Sam says, How are you supposed to sing while doing all that? Which is the first time the movie and I were on the same page. So yeah, it's a lot. I mean, do I like Mother Mary bluntly? No. No. But you know, that doesn't mean there isn't some real skill and craft behind it. The acting was great. And uh, in the words of Aretha Franklin, it had great gowns, beautiful gowns. The look was interesting for sure. The visuals were very cool. And when the movie stops trying to explain itself and just leans into the visuals, it looks fantastic. Oh, and you can sort of vibe out on that. But I have to call out, oh my God. One thing that is cracked me up. So, Mother Mary, her whole shtick is that well, the whole Catholic imagery, and she wears like a headband that with various halo looks. Then the most famous one is it's with giant metal spikes sticking out. And it looks great when she's performing, but at a certain point they cut to the audience, and you see a packed audience, and literally everyone is wearing these halos and dancing. And I was like, listen, I'm clumsy. I know what would happen. All of these girls are gonna get stabbed in the eye with halo spikes from the person next to them. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 19:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Um yeah, you know, Mother Mary was a frustrating watch. I really wanted to like it. I was interested in the trailer. I thought it had a cool premise, but uh just slowly as I watched it, I realized the movie's never gonna tell me what it's actually about. It's a very small emotional story dressed up like an epic myth. And uh hey, sometimes that works. For example, I really love the Nicholas Wendingriffin movie, The Neon Demon, because it has uh a very dreamlike, mythic quality, but at the center, it knows what it's about. It's about a young model, how young models are treated, how the beauty industry literally eats its young and spits them out. The metaphors are also in the text. So the movie feels more specific, intentional, and satisfying. And in the end, that's all I want. I just want movies to succeed at their own goals. And for me, Mother Mary doesn't quite get there because it never roots this mythology in anything concrete enough to hold on to. I didn't care about these people because I didn't know who they were, I didn't know what their relationship was or what actually happened between them. I don't even know what happened as I was watching the movie. So a movie can ask for emotional weight, but first it has to give you some solid ground to stand on. And that this movie didn't do that. So I also for enjoyment, I gave it a one because I didn't like it, man. But for quality, I gave it a two and a half. Mine's a little bit lower than yours because I wanted to balance out how highly I think of the performances and the design and cinematography. I think they were all wonderful, but I think the script and the initial concept are not enough to make it satisfying. So I sort of wanted to uh I had I went in the middle for the rating because I think it sort of balances the two. Yeah. It's interesting. It was an interesting film. Not a fun pop star.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Mother Mary.

Movie Review: Michael (2026)

SPEAKER_03 22:09

Mother Mary. So our next movie is Michael. It's a big estate-backed biopic that tells the story of Michael Jackson on like a full blockbuster scale. It's directed by Antoine Fuqua, produced by Graham King, who also produced Bohemian Rhapsody. So he's a bit of a biopic guy. But the most interesting part is how involved the Jackson family is in shaping it. And there's the casting because its star, Jafar Jackson, is actually Michael Jackson's real life nephew. And it gives the whole thing a very specific kind of authenticity. The movie leans hard into music too. It's got, I looked this up, I couldn't believe it, over 30 songs from the Jackson 5 and from Michael's solo career. Some of them performed in their entirety or near entirety. The film also stars Coleman Domingo, who is amazing as Joe Jackson, and Nia Long, who gives a really great performance as Catherine Jackson. And it follows Michael's rise from the Jackson 5 into global superstardum, focusing on pressure, ambition, and everything that comes with that level of fame. It's also worth noting the story stops before the most widely known controversies of Michael Jackson. So it's really centered on his ascent and peak rather than the full complexity of his legacy. Yeah. What'd you think of Michael, Asish?

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Well, as someone whose childhood and teenage years span from the 80s through the 90s, I grew up with Michael Jackson's music and was a huge fan of his for years. So I was pretty sure I would at least see this movie on that basis alone. Looking into the crew and cast of the movie, though, the fact that Antoine Fouquo was attached to Direct made it a bit more appealing to me. Given that I've really enjoyed a lot of movies he's work in, I'd say that Training Day is probably one of my top ten favorite films of all time.

SPEAKER_03 24:17

Oh yeah, that's one of your faves.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

Yeah. However, I did question how well his work on movies I've enjoyed would translate to a biopic movie about a pop star. And while I didn't know John Logan by name, I did recognize some of the movies he wrote for, uh namely Gladiator, The Aviator, The Last Samurai, and two of the Bond movies, Skyfall Inspector.

SPEAKER_03 24:42

Oh, those are well, one of them's great. Once again.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

So I felt like we were at least probably in good hands as far as dealing with films that I'd say were close to the scale of what we expected of this movie. As far as the cast goes, I mainly just recognize Coleman Domingo, Neilon, and Miles Teller. However, Ashley did mention before we saw the movie that Jafar Jackson, who plays Michael in the movie, is Michael's real life nephew, which I thought was probably a good call for a movie like this. And seeing the trailers, I was expecting a pretty large-scale film that seemed to cover Michael's career from his childhood through his early solo career. I caught that the trailer mentioned the producer of the film also produced Bohemian Rhapsody. And while I haven't seen that film, I'm definitely aware of the achievements and the praise it's gotten and recall how well captured concert shots were from what I have seen from the movie. So at least I figured the performance aspect, both with how well Jafar Jackson seemed to emulate Michael and how it was shot, would likely turn out great if nothing else. Beyond that, I will say that I was well aware of the fairly negative critical response of this movie leading up to the release, and when I saw it, but never really looked into what exactly the criticisms were. So I think I just went into it expecting a biopic about Michael that covered his childhood through early solo career, but was un otherwise unsure of the depth or even the overall tone of the movie outside of the performances. Seeing this movie, I actually ended up enjoying it more than I expected to. Though given that it's been years since I've actively listened to Michael's music and everything that happened in his career since the time covered in the movie, I definitely was hoping for more depth and maybe drama.

SPEAKER_03 26:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

What I got wasn't bad, but I will say that outside of the scale of the arena performances in the movie, the movie felt pretty small scale. Like it could have been a streaming or cable movie. It was way more funny than I expected for one specific reason, which I'll get into later. The writing and direction seemed fine, but again, felt very small scale for a lot of it. The movie definitely didn't feel as large as some of the other movies John Logan has written, and certainly didn't seem like something I'd expect Fukwa to be directing. Though I admit I've mostly seen his action films and not his documentaries or films based on real life events or people mostly. I like the cast and really felt like Jafar Jackson did an amazing job capturing the personality of Michael, at least as far as how I remember him being someone who was alive for much of the public moments that were shown in the movie. Miles Teller was fine as John Branca, though I felt like he was in the movie a lot less frequently than he appeared to in the trailers. Nia Long did a great job as Catherine Jackson, but I was almost hoping for more dialogue from her, given how well known Nia is as an actress. But the moments that do have her did have a lot of impact, and she imparted a lot of heart to the movie. Also, speaking of heart, aside from Jafar and Nia, I thought Kaylin Durrell Jones, who played Bill Bray, Michael's bodyguard, really contributed much of the heart in this movie. He was great. Yeah, I really liked his character, and I'm not really sure if they were as close as they were in the movie in real life, but he's almost like a quiet confidant for him, which I really think worked well given how low profile he is, and how someone as high profile as Michael seemed to kinda look to him for balance, I guess, in the movie. Last but certainly not least, Coleman Domingo is Joseph Jackson. Oof. Holy shit. I mean, yeah, I didn't miss him in the trailer or anything, but yo, you have no idea how much funnier he is in the movie compared to the trailer. For us and a few others in our audience, what I can only call peak Joe Jackson moments were absolutely killing us because he's pretty good playing Joe Jackson doing normal stuff. But holy shit. We're definitely reminded that this man has a sense of humor several times throughout the movie where he really is hamming it up.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Design-wise, this movie is phenomenal as far as how great everything in the performances look, from how they're shot to the sets to the costume, and even hair and makeup. Sure, Jafar doesn't look exactly like Michael, but he's definitely one of the best portrayals we've probably seen as far as accuracy in a movie. Outside of the performances, the look of these elements aren't quite as appealing, but I don't think there was that much visually that felt too out of place in the moment of history a given scene took place in. This is definitely a movie that leans heavy on the performances, though, and that's where it really shines. So yeah, compared with what we saw in the trailer, I pretty much got close to what we were expecting. Though the scale of the film overall felt significantly smaller. Going into my rating, I gave it a three and a half for enjoyment and a two and a half for quality. Overall, I enjoyed the movie, even though it wasn't exactly what I expected. As someone who actually experienced Michael's career over most of the time covered within the movie, I honestly don't know if any experience really comes close to reliving it. Outside of maybe watching old concert and music videos of his. But I commend Lionsgate for making a large-scale biopic on Michael, given that I definitely feel like it's been a while since we've had movies or TV shows covering the more positive aspects of his life. I really enjoy the musical performances, even the small-scale ones earlier in the movie. And I really think they're the biggest selling points of the movie. They're really the next best thing to re-watching is old concert footage, and I definitely feel like the movie is as close as we can get to the feeling of seeing him in real life again.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Besides that, holy shit, Coleman Dominguez's portrayal of Joe Jackson was definitely the next most memorable high point of this movie. If you like goofy, potentially unintentionally funny stuff, this whole ass role he plays in this movie is literally that for most of the movie. Quality-wise, I don't have a lot of complaints. But like I mentioned, the strongest delivery is in the concert performance scenes. So if you enjoy that stuff, it's definitely worth seeing. Aside from that, let's be real. If you got a lot of complaints about a movie that had a budget that's estimated to be somewhere between 165 to 200 million dollars, I probably wouldn't have given it a middle score of two and a half. And the reason why I did again is that there's definitely moments where it didn't seem like the scale matches the budget. I do have a recommendation. However, I have a feeling it might be difficult to find, given that I wasn't able to find it streaming anywhere. But if you're able to find it in your local library, use video store or somewhere in the dark corners of the internet, I'd suggest the 1992 miniseries The Jacksons and American Dream. I actually remember watching this on ABC as a kid, and it was probably the first time I really got to see into how Michael's upbringing was, since I only knew him as a cool pop star guy up until then. But per Wikipedia, the series was, quote, the most popular and successful music biography miniseries of the 1990s. And it was nominated for a few Emmys and even one one for outstanding individual achievement and choreography. So I gotta assume it was good, and it wasn't just me that thought it was good. I remember it.

SPEAKER_02 32:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Something you'll likely have to look for in physical format, since again, I wasn't able to find it on a streaming platform, but I am aware that it was previously released on DVD and HS. So nice.

SPEAKER_03 33:03

Good rec.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

Let me know if you find it too, because it'd be cool.

SPEAKER_03 33:07

Yeah, it'd be cool to watch again.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

We had again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:10

Man, Michael Jackson. It's just given uh R age. Yeah, I think every person, RH, American RH, probably even all over the world, has some sort of relationship with Michael Jackson, his music. And like I thought it was wild watching this movie. How many times I was like, oh, I remember where I was when his hair caught on fire. I remember where I was when I first saw that video. And uh it's a movie I was feeling a little tentative going into because it's impossible to think about his legacy without thinking about the many accusations that have been brought against him. And I haven't fully looked into those. I haven't seen Finding Neverland, I haven't read into it fully, but as a result of them, I basically stopped listening to his music. And and I listened to it kind of a lot before that. So this was sort of my first exposure to Michael Jackson in a long time. And it's interesting because biopics can go one of two ways. Sometimes they're giving you a new look at an artist, like the Bruce Springsteen one we saw last year. I don't think we reviewed it, but we saw, and it gave a really nice, small, emotional look at a certain time in his career. So something that we wouldn't have seen as the public that gives us more insight into him as an artist. This is not that.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

So like a greatest sense of like part of his life.

SPEAKER_03 34:50

And I think it helps to think of this movie as something outside of what you would expect from a traditional film. Because I think Michael only really works if you stop expecting it to be some deep prestige biopic and realizes what it actually is. It's emotional propaganda. You know, it's a movie that's not trying to investigate Michael Jackson as a person. It's trying to remind you why the entire world once like lost their absolute minds over him. And it honestly, it got me. It got me. And it's so interesting because we do know that his family was very involved in this. So obviously, there's things they're not going to want to show, there's things they are going to want to show. And it kind of cracked me up. There's so many scenes in this movie of crowds screaming, crying, reaching out to him. And at first it almost feels excessive, but then I realized that that's the point. The movie's basically looking at the audience and saying, see, this is how you should feel. And and you know what? I did, I fully did.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

And that also was the reality of what we were doing. It was because I remember like it's funny because yeah, in watching even the portrayal of people passing out at the concerts and stuff like that. You would see that all the time. If you watch live footage of his concerts from before, it's happening all over the place.

SPEAKER_03 36:11

So absolutely. And he just was so ever-present. I have so many little stories about Michael Jackson, oh, my favorite one. I had a poster of in my room, but my friend thought his eyes were following her. So I had to hide the poster in the closet when she came over. I won't get into that further. But this movie really highlights his talent. I mean, hearing his little voice at the beginning, watching the Jackson 5 performances, seeing all the studio sessions, it all really worked for me. I was crying at the music, like full tears. I had to like wipe my eyes multiple times because it it's just uh I know I do have a big emotional connection to Michael, but also the music is so good. And yeah, it felt less like watching a traditional movie than going to see an amazing cover band or seeing an amazing remaster of a concert tour. It's more like uh seeing a concert experience. So yeah, I don't think judging it as a normal biopic makes sense. Normally, yeah, you want to learn something, you want complexity, contradiction, the messy stuff. And this movie doesn't do it. It's family approved, sanitized. But I if nostalgia's the goal, they got me, you know. We're talking about Michael Jackson as an artist, he's just so undeniable. And I still was in awe hearing these songs and watching Jafar Jackson do just an amazing job with the physicality and the performance. Yeah, whatever else people think of him, he's just a phenomenal, unique, one-of-a-kind artist. The dancing was incredible. You could easily forget you're watching a performance of someone else and think you're watching Michael Jackson. It just snapped me back into it. And there's really just never been a celebrity like him since. And I think the casting of having a family member was genius and also having it be someone who's not famous, that's genius. Because you don't spend the whole time thinking that's not Michael Jackson. You just see someone doing a really great job at the physicality, and you really believe it. Oh my God, you got into it. But Coleman Domingo is having the goddamn time of his life.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

Oh, hell yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:34

His Joe Jackson is so good. Like he is intimidating. So we saw it in a pretty packed crowd, and there were several babies there. And there's one baby who would cry every time he was on screen.

SPEAKER_01 38:51

Oh yeah, funny.

SPEAKER_03 38:52

It was like he's very intimidating, but he also is just hamming it up. Like he does these long, dramatic stares for so long. You expect him to look directly at the camera, and it has almost a campy vibe. Um, and he just looks so much like him. Oh my god. The movie, like you said, it was also really funny. There's a lot of just straight up jokes. I loved at one point Michael's trying to get inspiration for a song, and he says, Come on, God, I need inspiration because if you don't give it to me, Prince is gonna take it. And I'm like, Hell yeah. And there is a lot of good emotional stuff, in particular in their early-on scenes in Gary, where you see how Joe really controlled their life and made everything be about performance and perfection. I thought that was great. I loved seeing everything in the studio. I just, I mean, my thoughts are all over the place for this because it just feels like less of a film and more of like a sensory experience. And I really was on board for the music, the performance, the humor. Like you said, the way things are a little bit uh lifetime movie is very obvious.

SPEAKER_02 40:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:12

The way they deal with foreshadowing is pretty hilarious at times. There's a scene where Michael's injured, he's on pain meds, and he's like, Oh, I don't know about these pain meds. And it's like they're winking at you like, this is gonna how he's gonna die. There's all these really like winking things thrown in that are silly. But if you ignore all that and you just take in the music, and I really recommend see it at like a Dolby or an IMAX theater.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

Yeah, we saw it in IMAX and it was great.

SPEAKER_03 40:44

Yeah, because you're not gonna get the feeling of watching old Michael Jackson footage that you will being in the theater with the the sound as is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Yeah, you feel like you're in a concert.

SPEAKER_03 40:56

You really do. So I don't think Michael is some perfect dramatic masterpiece. I don't even think it's that dramatic. But if you go in expecting a great wild performance, if you expect the greatest hits.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

If you just want to see the fucking moonwalk.

SPEAKER_03 41:13

If you want to see the moonwalk, if you want to see the costumes, if you want the nostalgia and spectacle, it here it is. But you can leave the theater and go back to whatever complicated feelings you have about Michael. But if you want to touch into that nostalgia and sort of celebrate the music, I think it's worth seeing for sure. For me, I actually gave it a higher enjoyment score than you because oh my god, the music is so good. And I haven't listened to it in so long. The performances, I gave it a four. I really enjoyed it. For quality, I gave it a two and a half because as good as it looks and it looks amazing, there's not a lot up there. This story is very paint by numbers. I doubt there's anything in this that you wouldn't get by watching that old uh mini-series that we saw as kids. Yeah. But yeah, interesting. Really, I was expecting to like Mother Mary a lot more than this one. And this week the movies just really surprised me.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

Yeah. Yeah, it was like the other way around for me too.

SPEAKER_03 42:19

Totally. Oh, Michael.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

Michael.

SPEAKER_03 42:24

Michael. Oh, also Sush and I both have some great media of us as Michael Jackson fans as kids. So keep an eye on our socials because we've got a great photo of Sush, and if I can find a good copy, a pretty uh excellent dancing video of me and my best friend Nick when I was a kid dancing with a thriller.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 42:48

Hey Sush, what's going on with Monarch?

SPEAKER_01 42:52

Well, we are on season two, episode nine, the penultimate episode.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Penalty titled Ends of the Earth.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

Before I get into things, since the episodes this season no longer seem to be including as much of the flashback storyline in the latter half of the season. I'm just gonna have recaps parallel the order of everything as it happens within the episodes for the rest of the season. And next season, if we cover it upon return to, because, you know, keep me from having to go back and forth. Anyway, let's get started. The penultimate episode of season two begins all major storylines together on Skull Island, shifting the focus from Titan on Titan Spectacle back to long-buried emotional truths and dangerous human ambition. The episode opens in the Pacific as Godzilla pursues Titan Next through a violent storm, with Outpost 18 following close behind. When the Titans finally converge at a rock spire in the ocean near Skull Island, Godzilla unexpectedly refuses. Uses to attack, Keiko theorizes that Godzilla's role is not to kill rogue titans, but to force them back where they belong, suggesting that Skull Island contains a natural rift to access Mundy. Godzilla retreats, confirming her suspicion. With Kate and Kintaro already on the island, Monarch redirects its mission, retrieve them, and find a way to send Titan X home before Kong arrives. On Skull Island, Kate, Kintaro, and Isabel Simmons watch as Titan X's egg is lowered onto the island as bait. Kate strongly objects, calling the plan cruel and reckless. Isabel finally lays out her true intentions as they enter a former monarch base underground that she's repurposed for her own team. She believes Skull Island hosts a stable central rift that could serve as a permanent gateway through Axis Mundi. Her vision is to exploit the realm as a time machine, providing a potential scenario of sending people with chronic illnesses into Access Mundi to wait out the present and return unchanged to a future that may have developed a cure for them. The egg is meant to lure Titan X into opening the rift and eventually to provoke a confrontation that could eliminate Kong. Kate tries to reason with Kintaro, accusing Isabel of manipulating his grief over their father's death. Kintaro initially refuses to back down, but as Isabel's ruthlessness becomes clear, he begins to waver. Meanwhile, Keiko, Lee, Tim, and Korra land on Skull Island with a heavily armed monarch team. Tim emphasizes the urgency. Once Kong senses Titan X, the mission clock becomes deadly short. Studying Bill's old satellite maps, Keiko identifies multiple rift locations that he marked decades ago. While searching these sites, she discovers an old journal dated October 21st, 1958, triggering a key emotional flashback. The flashback takes us to Papua New Guinea in 1958, where Bill and Keiko confirmed the existence of a Titan Rift, validating Bill's life's work. Overjoyed and soaked by rain, they impulsively seek out a justice of the peace and get married, promising unwavering belief in each other. Additional flashbacks in the episode show Bill after Keiko's disappearance into Axis Mundy, broken, guilt-ridden, and increasingly obsessive. The episode reframes his later moral failures as the actions of a man who never recovered from profound loss. Back in the present, Isabel's team successfully sedates Titan X after luring her to the egg, confirming just how far they're willing to go. At the same time, Monarch soldiers are quietly picked off by Skull Island's lethal ecosystem, underscoring how fragile human plans are here. The episode ends with all parties converging, Riff still unfound, Titan X endangered, and the unspoken truth looming larger than ever. Skull Island isn't just a battleground, it's the key to the entire Monsterverse timeline.

SPEAKER_03 47:12

Ooh.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

Yeah, so what'd you think of the episode?

SPEAKER_03 47:15

Oh man. Well, I'm not gonna say that a lot of stuff happened because every time I do, you say no, it didn't. But um But you know what?

SPEAKER_01 47:24

A lot of stuff happened.

SPEAKER_03 47:26

I know, right? Okay, I'm glad we're on the same page.

SPEAKER_02 47:31

But not that much.

SPEAKER_03 47:32

Yeah, okay, all right, bye. But yeah, what really stood out to me in this episode is how much this show like lives or dies based on whether the emotional stakes feel grounded. Because when it works, it really works. But when it doesn't work, it gets kind of cartoonish. And I think there is some of that going on here this week. I think the strongest part of the episode for me was easily Keiko, Bill, and Lee's storyline. The wedding flashback is genuinely sweet, especially the little details like Bill getting excited and interrupting with an idea he has about probes, and then later on correcting the efficient to say Dr. Keiko instead of Miss Keiko. And her vows about finally finding someone who sees the world as she does. Oh my God, beautiful. Their relationship, like we've said several times, feels a lot more layered and unexpected than the usual romance, especially a love triangle setup. And then that final reveal with the probes and the letters. Oh my God, completely reframes everything we thought about Bill's entire obsession. Finding out that he spent his life sending probes into rifts all over the world trying to find her, leaving that same love letter in every single one. It turns what looked like abandonment into something much sadder, but also more romantic. And I thought that was a really great closing moment to the episode to see that near the end. And then Kate also works really well here because she's one of the few people speaking from experience instead of ego when trying to make her point. I think her trying to stop Kentaro by explaining that grief makes you feel like you have to do something, anything, even if it's the wrong thing, gives the whole plot emotional weight. She understands exactly how easy it is to mistake action for the right action because she's done it and there've been consequences. Then on the monster side, I really love how clearly this defines Godzilla's role. He says Titan X has mosied on towards uh Skull Island, realizes she's no longer a threat to the rest of the world, and basically just goes, All right, my job here's done, and sort of heads off. It makes it feel less like random destruction and more like this exhausted force of nature whose only job is like enforcing order. And then, of course, I'm always happy to see Kong. I love me some Kong, so happy to see him. Looks great as always, bounding through the forest. I think for me, the biggest issue this week is Isabel because she just feels like she belongs in a different show to me. She's less complicated and a little more like Bond villain. You know? She's got a bunker, she's standing on a middle platform watching monsters fight like she brought premium seats for it. And every line, she's uh wide-eyed, like crazy maniacal eyes going on. She's got that whole line about anything can be driven to fight with proper incentive. I think that that moment almost pushes her too far into a cartoon evil. For me at least, it started to break some of the tension instead of building it. And I know the actress is good. I I know it. So I'm not sure what's going on here. To me, it just feels like a departure from the show's normally nuanced, grounded character work. But maybe the showrunners felt like they just needed to ramp up the end of the season and build suspense. But whatever the intent, her character seems so positioned to be like a theatrical big bad. And it just makes her feel ridiculous more than threatening. You know?

SPEAKER_01 51:41

I took it more as she didn't know what the hell she was doing and she was just being over the top because she didn't realize how easy things could go wrong with Titans involved.

SPEAKER_03 51:53

Well, I think there's that too. But it's just her performance, her lines, everything is so it just feels like it's in a different show to me. It just feels much more over the top. But I do think, yeah, of course she's gonna fail. She has a terrible, terrible plan. I also had like oh my god. Okay, I have a couple little bones to pick with this episode.

SPEAKER_02 52:20

You know, okay.

SPEAKER_03 52:22

There's that with Isabel, and then also I was driven seriously crazy by this one monarch team member.

SPEAKER_00 52:29

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:30

This guy, his his entire personality seems to be questioning everything and slowing everyone down.

SPEAKER_01 52:37

You know what? I think that literally was just a setup. So Tim had somebody to like finally say something back to. He basically goes off on the guy, but then like right after that, he reverts back to Tim, and he's just like, sorry for being a dick.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

I know.

SPEAKER_01 52:57

Yeah, but this guy's I think it's literally just for that because we never see him again. And I think, well, we may never see him again because he's one of the people who's taken up by the random creatures on the island. But even if we didn't, I still have a feeling we wouldn't have seen him again.

SPEAKER_03 53:15

I hope so. I mean, this guy, like, he's he is the worst.

SPEAKER_01 53:19

I think it's literally was just a setup for Tim to have a fun moment.

SPEAKER_03 53:23

Well, it's funny because what I was thinking is yes, there's that, but also I think the problem is that normally Kentaro is there with them questioning everything, being like being the cantankerous one, the one who fights back on decisions, who moans and groans.

SPEAKER_01 53:42

Yeah, I guess it's different when it's somebody who's not a part of your crew.

SPEAKER_03 53:45

Yeah, so it's like the person who's constantly having the wrong take is off doing something else. So they need someone to fill the role. I guess that's true. I did love the Tim moment, I have to say. And Kantaro continues to be frustrating because he spends half the episode being smug while making obvious terrible decisions. I feel like he's just smirking at Kate while she's practically begging him to use common sense. So overall, I think this episode has some really strong emotional material, especially around Bill and K and Keiko. But, you know, they're just things that drove me a little nuts. And I think the human drama, it works best when it feels messy and real. And I really like that it ends with also Kentaro explaining, I did this because dad doesn't have to be dead. We can bring dad back. And that gives us some clarity as to what his motivations are, as misguided as they might be. It at least puts some context into what's been going on in the last few episodes.

SPEAKER_02 54:49

True, true.

SPEAKER_03 54:49

But yeah, I I mean, I'm definitely excited to see what's next. Yeah, what do you think, Sish?

SPEAKER_01 54:56

Well, if nothing else, uh the visuals for this episode were really on point. Kicking off with like Godzilla chasing after Titan X, seeing Skull Island again, even the place where we're supposed to believe Bill died.

SPEAKER_00 55:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:10

And uh seeing Kong again. You know?

SPEAKER_00 55:13

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 55:13

I gotta say that every week we get fun moments uh with him, the more I liked him as a character, like I was saying before, how he stepped up as a leader this week, while also being very Tim about it shortly after and apologizing for being a dick. That was funny to me. And while I wasn't a huge fan of Korra's, I think she's growing on me, especially with how much she warns the monarch soldiers about how crazy Skull Island is before they witness it themselves. In a way, I am a bit impressed that Isabel Simmons planned to use Axis Mundy as a time vortex. I mean, I couldn't deny that if I were rich, I'd probably pay to use it, even if it were for fun. You would honestly should really think about maximizing her use of the space, given that Axis Mundy is underdeveloped. I mean, how dope would it be to book a spa week in Access Mundy and come back in a few years? Nothing too crazy. I'm just saying, you know, looking the same as before while your haters have all aged and hopefully your investments have made sizable returns. Oh my god. Well, yeah, it doesn't change the fact that girl is full-on crazy. Like we know that the use of neural implant devices on Titans typically doesn't work out that well.

SPEAKER_03 56:29

No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 56:31

So yeah, that's already off to the fun start. Call it. Lee and Keiko finding the rift and finding all of Bill's markers was a cool reveal. I figured he probably did find the main rift. But even if he didn't confirm the location within his lifetime, I think it made sense story-wise having the two people closest to him find it. Yeah, and while it was kind of disappointing that we weren't able to have as convincing of a progression in character between the Anders Home and John Goodman portrayals of the character, I think it was the nice touch having Bill leave a note for Keiko in each of those with what he should have said on their wedding day.

SPEAKER_03 57:22

Or that he abandoned their kid.

SPEAKER_01 57:24

Yeah, exactly. The reveal that Kintaro's partnership with Isabel is based on this wild notion of his that he can save Hiroshi, presumably by bringing him back from the past before he died. Just crazy.

SPEAKER_03 57:39

Crazy, but who knows?

SPEAKER_01 57:41

I mean, overall, I suppose he probably had more of a connection to his father than Kate ever did, but I just find it nuts that he's willing to go to this extent for someone that was otherwise not around for him.

SPEAKER_00 57:53

True.

SPEAKER_01 57:54

And keeping a secret about having another family in the US, even if it is his father, that's crazy length to go to bring him back. I get that part of it is that he just passed and everything. But I do think this was a good way to kind of make it at least understandable now why it seemed like Nintendo was just going along with everything that Isabel said, given that he would assumingly be one of the first to have access to the Access Mundi type machine.

SPEAKER_00 58:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:22

I guess the upside is that at least he's kind of leaving Kate alone. Yeah. Though she's probably the one that won't be able to leave him alone now, given what they're doing to the Titans to facilitate everything.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

I know.

SPEAKER_01 58:36

Overall, I really enjoyed the episode, but I really also feel like I have no idea what we're going to get in the season's finale. I mean, I know it'll involve Titan X, given Isabel and her team taking control of her. But given that Godzilla is retreated, I guess we can assume Kong could show up. I suppose given Lee and Keiko have probably located where the rift is, that kind of leaves it open to any Titan that could potentially pass through Axis Mundy. So that definitely creates some anticipation for the finale at least. I'm assuming we'll probably have another character death or multiple. I'm almost betting on a Titan this time, though, given Hiroshi was a main character and just died earlier in the season.

SPEAKER_03 59:24

Oh, I wanna c I want to do a prediction.

SPEAKER_01 59:27

What?

SPEAKER_03 59:28

I predict that the Titan X's baby is gonna hatch and it's gonna be cute, but then that maybe the mom of Titan X will die.

SPEAKER_01 59:38

Oh, okay. Well, I was gonna say if any humans were to die, my money would probably be on Isabel or Trisop.

SPEAKER_03 59:46

Oh, yeah. I love Cliff Curtis, but that character's awful.

SPEAKER_01 59:50

Yeah. But you know, the show loves doing that type of stuff with those types of characters. You know, they like how early on in the season the previous, I guess, like operations person or whatever at Apex just immediately.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:05

Yeah, really. They killed her so fast.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:07

So I think it's just funny uh how these things happen on this show. But regardless, my assessment that the show tends to end on a cliffhanger disaster in order to set up an early win in the following season still stands. So I guess we'll find out next week whether or not that pans out.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:23

Ooh, and if we get to see a baby Titan X.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:26

Ooh, okay. Let's move on to Daredevil.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:31

Let's do it, Daredevil Born Again.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:37

Moving on to Daredevil Born Again, season two, episode seven, titled The Hateful Darkness. And what kind of adapter Well, that's how I was gonna start it. The penultimate episode opens with New York City the morning following the aftermath of the previous episode. Wilson Fisk, now unrestrained following Vanessa's passing, is determined to restore order through force and intimidation. The city is shadowed by vigils and protests, and violence spills into the streets as Fisk's script tightens. Karen Page is arrested at a protest, and instead of being killed, she's taken into custody, with Fisk planning to make a public spectacle of her arrest to draw Matt Murdoch out of hiding. Karen is kept in prison, and Fisk personally visits her, calling her a criminal for aiding Daredevil. He attempts to intimidate her, even going as far as to choke her through the bars of her cell. But Karen stands her ground, refusing to show fear. Jessica Jones confronts Mr. Charles, furious that his men raided her house while her child was there. Charles claims it was a mistake and reveals that he's no longer aligned with Fisk, especially with the governor trying to unseat him. She tries to threaten him, but he's aware that her powers have been unreliable, adding another layer of vulnerability to her situation. He mentions that Luke Cage is overseas and reminds her that he's the only one that can connect her with him, hinting at a return in some future Marvel Studios offering, which I'm sure Ashley was happy to hear about.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:17

Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:18

Based on recent events, Charles believes Fisk is going to try to kill and replace the governor in order to maintain control over and protect the Freeport status of Red Hook. Jessica relays this information to Matt and Cherry, but makes it clear her priority is protecting her daughter, Danielle. Also, Cherry updates Matt of Karen's arrest and mentions Fisk visiting her. Daredevil releases Bullseye from his restraints, offering him a chance at redemption. Matt admits his hatred for Dex's past actions, but finds it outweighed by his need to forgive. He frees Dex, but tells him if he truly does want to make up for what he's done, he has an opportunity in mind for him, which Dex seems to be open to hearing about. We cut to Karen in her cell, who is visited by Brett, who we remember mostly from the Netflix Daredevil and Punisher series, now chief of police, who sneaks her out briefly to meet with Matt as Daredevil. Torn between his roles as Daredevil and lawyer, he realizes that breaking Karen out would only serve Fisk's agenda. The DA meets with Fisk to discuss Karen's case, listing charges of aiding and abetting murder, supporting Daredevil and inciting a riot as the strongest to choose from. However, Fisk demands to have her charge with all the crimes. Heather meets with Fisk next to check in on him, but instead he turns the meeting into an opportunity to almost encourage her darker impulses as he presents the other ruby earring of Vanessa's that she previously stole, but doesn't reprimand her and even brushes it off as she tries to apologize. At the courthouse, it's finally revealed that Matt's plan is to fight for Karen in court, uh, joining Kirsten as co-counsel. This episode marks the return of Matt to the courtroom and puts his legal skills back in the spotlight, but the stakes are high as Matt and Kirsten must navigate a corrupt system while protecting their friends and fighting for justice. Karen's trial is broadcast across New York, turning it into a media circus and a symbol of resistance against Fisk's regime. The governor watches the trial from her office and decides to move forward with the process to suspend the Freeport status at Red Hook. Following the trial, the AVTF try to prevent Matt and his friends from leaving the courthouse alive. However, Matt holds off the AVTF long enough for his friends to escape. Bullseye succeeds, throwing knives to stop the masked attacker, thus earning his freedom and setting the stage for a potential return to the MCU. Maybe a hero. We get some more foreshadowing of a potential turn for Heather as she meets with Karen after she's returned to jail to perform a psycho evaluation. But Karen knows how to play her game and lets her know, mocking her. This eventually drives Heather to try to use Karen's past against her, but Karen still doesn't break, even after Heather resorts to slapping her. So she eventually leaves. Also, Daniel's arc finally reaches its tragic conclusion. While initially conflicted, Daniel eventually helps keep BB safe from Buck, giving her a burner phone and telling her to disappear. As expected, Buck and Daniel meet and it turns violent with Daniel's refusal to give in, likely resulting in his death, a noble sacrifice that underscores the high personal cost of resisting Fisk's regime. This moment is pivotal as it removes a key player and raises the stakes for the season finale.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:04

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:05

The episode closes in parallel despair. Fisk alone, Karen imprisoned, bodies left in the shadows, and Matt bleeding and broken, collapsing inside a red-lit church. He prays the Saint Jude, patron stain of hopeless causes. Heavy boots that go behind him. As we see, Jessica Jones has arrived. And Ashley, what'd you think of this one?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:29

Uh man. Well, I guess what stood out to me in this episode is how well it's balanced. It keeps everyone in play. It doesn't feel like we're stuck in any one storyline too long. So it seems like everybody matters, everyone's moving. And in the end, it really feels like these separate threads are sort of tightening at the same time. I especially like the final sequence, which is probably the best example of that. Matt's injured in the church and praying. And while we hear his voice praying, the camera keeps cutting to everyone else. We see Karen in jail. We see Fisk alone in his bedroom. We see Daniel with Buck. And all these people are hitting really significant moments in their storylines at the same time. And I think it gives the whole episode this feeling that everything's closing in, which is great for a penalty. And I think also Karen is totally the MVP of this episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:28

Oh, yeah. I had that noted.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:30

Oh my God. Deborah Ann Wool is just so good. Like, why is she not in everything? She's fantastic in this. She has this ability to feel innocent and proper one second and then completely intimidating the next. I think her scene with Fisk in the jail cell is fantastic because she's not backing down from him at all. And when she tells him that she likes seeing him scared, it lands because she knows she got him.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:01

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:03

Really getting good at sort of figuring people out and playing it to her advantage. And I think part of what makes Karen so interesting right now is she feels like she's someone who's getting maybe a little too comfortable with violence, a little too accepting of it. In the way that she's calm, in a way that feels almost dangerous. Like she's calm because she knows she can back it up. I also thought the Heather stuff was interesting, especially because I don't think she's as scared of Fisk as she should be. I think it's kind of like the denial, you know, for her to t have taken that earring in the first place is insane. And yes, she apologizes she feels bad when he confronts her, but I don't think she realizes that he could kill her in that moment.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:53

Yeah. I feel like we're led to believe at least that's the trauma that she sustained from what's causing her to do these things.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:03

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:03

Out of character, obviously.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:05

And and they do it visually too. You see sort of the camera go a little askew every once in a while. I think she also the way she talks about the earring and the way she plays it, you can tell she wishes she had more self-control than she does. And we know she doesn't, and she's gonna lose it in the next episode, guarantee. And then getting back to Karen. Karen's scene with Heather was great. I love that it stops being professional almost immediately and turns into these women just trying to destroy each other. Karen knows exactly what buttons to press, especially like when she starts talking about Matt, basically calling Heather whatever exists between her and Matt is something Heather will never really understand.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:50

And Heather cracks the slapping scene, is wild. She slapped her not just once. I mean, I think it was like five times.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:59

And it's I mean, she was pretty insulting. She was. It was great. It was great.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:05

But yeah, it's like all the resentment, all the insecurity, anger, and knowing that she's out of control. I think control is really the thing that's sort of uh controlling her. I don't know. There's other words, but I can't think of them. Then oh my god, Jessica Jones. God, I just love her so much. I think Kristen Ritter just has this perfect mix of humor, cynicism, and confidence, where every line feels like she's smarter than everyone else in the room, and she's kind of annoyed she has to explain things. She's funny, she's sharp, she makes every scene better. And uh, I am biased though. I think I was thinking about it watching this episode, and I was like, you know what? Jessica Jones is like the version of myself I wanted to be when I was a punk rock teenager. She's funny and charming, but impossible to fuck with. So I was happy to have her back, and I really hope she sticks around longer. Also, really interesting what Charles reveals, because earlier we found out that he was looking for people with powers and she resisted, but some other people didn't. And now we know that he knows Luke's location. So it seems like there must be a split between them, and Luke is out doing Charles's dirty work.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:23

I think it's mostly because remember, at the end of Luke Cage, he basically took over the world.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:30

I know. I'm assuming that there's some restitution for one, and then also it could be something he's gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:38

Even if they were trying to, you know, like spin it down or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:42

Yeah. Also, I gotta say it every time Luke Cage I think about him, I'm reminded that Nick Cage is Nick Cage because Luke Cage was his favorite comic book character. That's how he shows his his stage name. But getting back to the episode, I also really love the Matt and Bullseye scene because the dialogue in this episode I thought was really strong across the board. And Matt basically telling Bullseye, like, I hate you for what you've done. I might want to kill you. But if you mean any of this that you're talking about with balancing the scales, then I've got something for you to do for me. And then Bullseye actually saves the governor, which I think is wild. Also crazier, the way he's it seems like he nods at her.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:30

And then walks away, which to me makes me think that this is gonna play out in the future somehow.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:37

Oh no, I thought it was like a little salute.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:39

It could be that too. I might check off gunning everything like I always do. Right. Um, but I thought that was fun. And then, oh my god, Fisk trying to have the governor killed is also huge because it just shows Popari is willing to go now that he feels like he's definitely not banking, though.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:56

I don't think so.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:57

No, he's not, he's just doing it and just doing whatever strikes him. And then with Karen, he's trying to make everything look legal and clean on the surface. But underneath it, hey, he's dangerous, he's a murderer, he killed the doctor that tried to save his wife. You know, he's not hiding the brutality, he's just kind of wrapping it up in legitimacy, or that's what he thinks he's doing. And then we've got Daniel's death, which frankly felt inevitable. I mean, we've sort of been expecting it for a long time. He's such a goofball, and he's just was way in over his head from the start. Even him saving BB didn't, to me at least, feel like some huge moral awakening.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:45

No. Um because he was still about to turn her in. He was, he was so literally he was about to take her into the place.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:54

I know. He like lied to her about it, drove her all the way there, was sitting in the car, was getting her out. It was good that he let her go, but five minutes earlier, yeah, he was literally driving her to her death. So I don't know. But what I liked about that storyline was actually Buck. I thought his performance was really nice because it feels he just feels tired.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:18

Yeah. Um I think he's at his breaking point or he's getting absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:24

And he's he feels like a guy who's just doing a job. When Daniel calls him out and basically says, Hey, Fisk's gonna have you on the floor with a gun to your head one day, too. It lands because I'm sure Buck knows it's true.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:37

Yeah, I mean, all it takes is like one bad situation. It doesn't even need to really be his fault.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:42

Yeah, it could be anything. And then after he kills Daniel, the way he puts his gun away, steps over the body, grabs his stuff, and leaves. I kind of chuckled, not because it's funny funny, but because it shows exactly who he is. He's not sentimental or dramatic, and he's not going out of his way for anyone. He's not gonna waste any time walking around a body when he can just step over it faster.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:09

So I thought that was a nice touch. But yeah, overall, I thought it was a solid episode because everything's sort of cooking, everyone's coming to uh a head in their storyline at the same time. We've got some hints about what's gonna pop off in the next episode. Also, just it looked really great. I thought there was a little nice shots, especially I noticed there's a lot where the camera's really far back. And to me at least, that makes me feel a little nervous as if someone's watching or as if someone's gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:43

Yeah, it was really effective in that uh parking garage scene with the AVTF.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:48

It was awesome, yeah. So I I thought it was a great episode. I mean, what'd you think, Sush?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:54

Well, I love Karen in this episode. Hell yeah. I mean, sure, she gets choked by more than one person. Oh, did he Fisk and then later Heather for dropping the spiciest truth bombs? Oh yeah. I mean, Fisk is huge. Uh, and I honestly don't think he's ever thought of attacking a woman that wasn't superpowered or something like that. So just seeing him choke out Karen was crazy and made me realize how broken he's become since Vanessa's death.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:24

And how just unbalanced, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:26

Yeah. And Heather, I mean, even if we try to deny it before, it's pretty much a sure thing she's going to turn and likely become the next muse. Especially with her seeing Muse and the reflection when she was in the interrogation room choking Karen. Yeah. Given that you, Ashley, were just talking about him a few days ago. Maybe even on last week's podcast, it was cool that we got a reveal from Mr. Charles that Luke Cage has been working for his best.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:57

Very cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:58

Obviously, Valentina. I have a feeling he might pop up in the Spider-Man movie, or maybe even Doomsday.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:08

Oh my god, that'd be great. He's so good in that role. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:12

Well, given that we've established the character is overseas currently, I don't expect in being on anything coming out. Ah, that's true.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:20

That's a really good point.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:21

Yeah. Uh I thought having Matt return as himself in a courtroom to defend Karen worked really well for storytelling. I wasn't sure if or when we'd see him appear as himself again this season, but having this be the moment he does was perfect, even if the fact that he shows up last minute was very overly dramatic.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:43

I loved it. As along the way Kirsten, uh the judge says there's no jury here for you to speak to. She said, Oh, really? And then the camera pants to all the reporters and camera people there.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:56

It's crazy though how it really has gotten out of hand with the ABTF just mounting a full-on assault on Mantina's friends when they're leaving the court.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:05

Machine guns. Yeah, in a goddamn parking garage. Like, are you fucking serious? That was nuts. Really nuts.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:12

It was nice we had an actual scene with the governor moving forward with suspending the red hook free port status. Mostly because my YouTube autoplay tends to be a lot of MCU news, and we've actually already seen Sheila handing Spider-Man the key to the city in the trailer for the upcoming movie, brand new date. Oh, yeah. So I know she's definitely going to be mayor by the god. I think I'm on board with other creators that believe we might get some sort of cut at the end of the season finale into like several months in the future after Sheila takes over as mayor, or maybe we'll even see it happening as like part of the scene. That they call it. Because I can't imagine this being covered in like the upcoming Punisher streaming movie or whatever that's going to be on Disney Plus. And I can't think of any other Marvel Studio shows or movies taking place before the release date of the next Spider-Man movie, which is July 31st. So yeah, it'll be interesting to see how that pans out or how they make that happen. On a related note, it was cool that Bullsey's exit this season involved an attempt to atone for what he's done.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:23

Because there's been a lot of speculation that this could potentially lead to the MCU version of the Dark Avengers. Oh. Which is an Avengers team that Norman Osborne actually put together in the comics during the Dark Rain storyline. I'm not gonna get into the whole thing, but on that team, Bullseye actually dons the Hawkeye costume because they wanted to gain public support and kind of cover for the fact that the team was comprised pretty much completely of former and current villains.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:54

Oh funny.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:55

And given that we already have precedent for this with Dex previously when he was working for Fisk and he suited up as Daredevil to frame him. I think it's an interesting thing to kind of potentially lead into. So I'm looking forward to seeing, you know, where he ends up, definitely. Finally, in another I told you so moment, I'm pretty sure we saw Buck kill Daniel. Oh god. I only stopped short of saying that it was for sure in my plot synapses because I didn't see it up close, and Buck really beat the shit out of him before he shot him.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:27

Ah, true. He could have missed, right? He shot him in the head.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:34

I mean, didn't Fisk also get shot in the eye only like a few shows ago?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:41

Yeah, his first, his first.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:44

It's Marvels, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:45

It's Marvels. Show us the body. That's how we know it's real.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:50

Right. Either way, I'm just glad that in the end he did help BB get away, even though honestly, yeah, I didn't think he was going to turn it over to Buck to begin with, but yeah. Overall, definitely a great episode leading into the season finale, which I'm sure I'll enjoy, not only because of how often we end with the heroes having the upper hand, but because of how much is being set up in the future seasons or ties to the rest of the MCU, like the upcoming Punisher movie on Disney Plus, Spider-Man movie in theaters, and everything else that's been hinted at this season, like Luke Cage. I guess if Marvel Studios really wants to get weird, they can try to make this version of Kingpin try to access other universes, like the version of him in the Spider-Verse movies. But even if they don't, being someone who has followed the comics, I'm really looking forward to everything that's been announced by Marvel Studios so far, mostly because I really think it gets way deeper into the lore and the weird stuff. Because the cosmic stuff is a lot weirder. And then the way that they're taking the X-Men now, which is also kind of going a little bit in that direction. I'm just really wondering how well or poorly all that goes over with more casual audiences. Yeah, I'm cute. Yeah, I'll definitely be seeing all that stuff, and I'll be at the theater to see how everybody reacts.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:13

Awesome. Yeah, I can't wait. Daredevil.

What We're Watching Next

SPEAKER_01 1:22:17

Daredevil Ashley. What are we watching next?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:26

Sushi. We're gonna watch the movies Devil Wears Prada 2 and Deep Water, which is the Remy Harlan movie where a plane crashes into the water and then there's sharks. And then we might go crazy and watch Hokum as well, but uh you'll have to tune in next week to find out.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:44

I don't know. I don't know if we'll have time after Home Depot and Well, Bath and Beyond is no longer in business in physical form. So whatever. Uh but for TV we'll be doing Monarch Legacy of Monsters and Daredevil Born Again season two finales.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:03

Yay!

SPEAKER_01 1:23:04

And we'll be on a break for TV after that. So we'll either be reviewing extra movies and or we'll have a few special segments until we return on May 29th with Spider Noir. Which we haven't decided on how many to cover per podcast yet, but we'll figure out.

Outro

SPEAKER_03 1:23:23

We'll figure it out. We got this. Well, thank you everyone for listening. You guys are the best. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day and listening to us weirdos. We really, really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:38

Yeah, and remember to subscribe, rate, and review positively. Like uh Isabel probably wants people to rate and review the Access Monday time machine after she gets the up and running. But yeah, follow us also on the social medias TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:05

Thank you. Bye, guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:08

Alright, guys. Talk to you next week.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:10

Bye.